Handwiring: Materially More Musicial or Mentally More Mojo?

[jimi_dylan]

I post this question in Tinkerers Corner because, as someone having no pedal building expertise, I need a clear and informed answer from those who do. (And we have some awesome pedal builders here!) Ok, here goes...

AFAIK, the earliest fuzz boxes did not use PCBs. Today, we can obtain clones of these boxes, some of which are spectacular, e.g. Dave's 1965. Sometimes, we even have this choice: buy the PCB version of "fuzz X" or buy the handwired version of "fuzz X." When this is the case, the handwired version usually costs more. Logically, for the builder, this increased cost covers the increased time/labor it takes to handwire. However, what does the buyer get out of this deal?

For me, I appreciate the aesthetics of handwiring--it's just beautiful. Also, a handwired gut-shot of "fuzz X" reveals excellence in a craft and fidelity to the original for which it is a clone. However, are these the only benefits of paying more for handwiring? I doubt it. From personal experience, I have compared the PCB version of "amp X" to the handwired version of "amp X," and I thought not only did the handwired version sound better, but I assume it sounded better because it was handwired. Since I trust my ears, I trust my assumption enough to apply it to "fuzz X," but again I assume the handwired version will be better than its non-identical PBC twin. However, I would like back up my perception with an objective reason that I can communicate outside myself.

QUESTION: Tinkerers, based on the long-understood principles of electronics, how could (or how could not) a handwired fuzz sound more musical than its exact PCB copy? Assume that each is perfectly built: neither the PCB nor the handwired version could have been built any better.

On one hand, if PCB and handwiring possess physical properties that are substantially different, then I might be able to perceive a substantial difference in the musicality between them and, in this case, handwiring could be materially more musical.

On the other hand, if PCB and handwiring posses physical properties that are not substantially different, and I still perceive a substantial difference in the musicality between them then, in this case, I am just perceiving mojo.

Thanks guys! I look forward to learning from your responses!

[simonm]

I see it this way:
Electronically and mechanically speaking there can be no difference in sound between pcb or vero or point-to-point in a small circuit using low voltages. If you had your "fuzz x" and you made it ptp, then desoldered all the exact same parts and put them on a well designed pcb, it would be 100% the same. It cannot be any other way. Any difference between 2 versions of the same fuzz if one is ptp and the other is pcb is from variations in the other components, which will depend on the tolerance at the time of manufacture and the age of the component. Differences could also be introduced if the pcb is badly designed (e.g. some are noisier than others according to where the power connection is).

[Cado]

Simonm, just for clarification purposes, are you saying that although it does not make a difference in a fuzz, it does make a difference in an amp?

[simonm]

Simonm, just for clarification purposes, are you saying that although it does not make a difference in a fuzz, it does make a difference in an amp?

I'm saying that there is more reliable info to say that it can make a difference in an amp, but I don't have any direct experience of making amps, so I can't really say for sure. I know it's been discussed a lot, and I have read some of that stuff. The presumption is that once you concede that it makes a difference in an amp, then it must make a difference in a pedal too.
I would say that if there were differences /deficiencies in a pcb amp it would be because of the design of the pcb, rather than the inherent inferiority of the construction method - an electrical contact is still an electrical contact.

If you take jimi's assumption that "each is perfectly built: neither the PCB nor the handwired version could have been built any better" you find yourself in a hypothetical wonderland, that i don't think is possible, so not a useful starting point for discussion. See this post from Ampage referring to a preamp design to illustrate my point

"once he had an excellent design ready on the breadboard, he designed and produced the PCB. once he got one prototype board back, he stuffed it and fired it up--and was immediately disappointed with the tone.
it seems that there were so many more variables that he had not counted on, such as inter-trace capacitances and such, that the preamp sounded NOTHING like it did in PTP mode. so what he had to do was totally redesign the circuit in terms of component values to get anything close to the original tone. "

source http://archive.ampage.org/articles/1/op ... s_pcb.html

RG Keen makes amps - here's what he says
http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/p ... -to-pt.htm

[Cado]

Thanks Simonm, although I didn't pose the original question, I'd been wondering about this sort of thing as well. Your responses cleared it up for me.

[jimi_dylan]

I see it this way:
Electronically and mechanically speaking there can be no difference in sound between pcb or vero or point-to-point in a small circuit using low voltages. If you had your "fuzz x" and you made it ptp, then desoldered all the exact same parts and put them on a well designed pcb, it would be 100% the same. It cannot be any other way.

Simonm, thanks for giving a clear answer. Any other builders agree/disagree with this?

Also, thanks for the references. For one I did not know this: "this also explains the shitty tone of the reissue amps, which simply take all the old PTP component values and slap them in a PCB and expect it to sound the same. it just ain't gonna happen without some tweaking, and that's not cost effective" --from the first link.

[simonm]

Point to point looks cooler even if the sound is the same.

that was never in doubt! I love the look of the tagboard and tagsrip fuzz builds, but I don't really have the patience or forethought for that. Vero is my favourite method, it's quick and it always looks neat on the top side.

[starlingbrothers]

Point to point looks cooler even if the sound is the same.

If it sounds good then I'll love playing it but there's something about the hand made artifact that brings out the small boy gazing in wonder at the world and how it works :-D

[imlikeajungle]

Hand made is fulfilling for the builder, makes him put more love into it, therefore spreading on the love.

This is a very very very pink remark.

[the_original_mr_nice]

Hand made is fulfilling for the builder, makes him put more love into it, therefore spreading on the love.

This is a very very very pink remark.

Dave and Linzi are spreading the love in a very good way to us all :-D Hammerite Grey and Blue are lovely but how about Hammerite Pink so that we can all indulge in the 'pinkness' ;)